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DH Specific Tips and Hints: Armor


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#1 Schneller

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 05:50 PM

Here are tips and tricks to help you make the most of DH. Many of them submitted by players.

You will notice that in DH tanks, you must "unbutton" before exiting the vehicle. This is designed to prevent the unrealistic "Teleporting" of a crewman to the ground at supernatural speed.

A note on the Sherman and Cromwell tanks with 75 or 76mm main guns: These cannon are not powerful enough to reliably penetrate the frontal armor of tanks like the Panther and Tiger class. Maneuver to positions that will allow you to engage them from the side and rear and at close range if you can. Try to work in teams. Use numbers to offset the thicker armor of the Heavy German Panzers.

Because there are more powerful and complex tanks coming onto the DH battlefield, and because some of the maps require close consideration of what friendly tanks are up to, the best thing for inexperienced players to do is start with the simpler AND LESS CRITICAL tanks and MASTER THEM before moving on to the most challenging. If you jump into a tank that you can't really operate very well OR DON"T UNDERSTAND THE TACTICS THAT MAKE IT POWERFUL it will damage your teams efforts. We have a practice range map where you can become very good with the sights. But, listen and observe how the heaviest tanks are employed successfully before you grab them in a real battle---you teammates will appreciate it

The Wolverine and Achilles are TANK DESTROYERS rather than main battle tanks. These are best used on the flanks or firing from behind to support the most forward tanks of your side. They are powerful and accurate but the slow turret rotation speed makes them a poor choice for close combat with enemy tanks. In this respect they are similar to the German StuG.

The King Tiger is the most powerful tank on the Darkest Hour battlefield. It is virtually invulnerable from the front. Position yourself carefully to use this advantage. The King Tiger is slow, consider using it from longer ranges rather that closing to short ranges with Allied tanks. This will expose your weaker sides and rear. Allied hits there will kill you as fast as in any other tank.

The Jagdpanther also possessed very thick frontal armor. Be wary of exchanging frontal shots with this vehicle as well as the King Tiger.

Allied tanks of this period suffer from much thinner armor than the heavier Panzers. You must use cover and concealment to avoid powerful and accurate German cannon fire. Use stealth and teamwork to attack Panzers from the flanks and rear.

In US tanks, the + that you see at the top of the graticule display is NOT your crosshair, it is the boresight. Use this only for "Point Blank" shots of under 100 meters. Beyond this you will miss; low. This + marker is what you would use to aim the Cannister round from the Stuart. The Cannister shot is a short range weapon and loses effectiveness at a couple of hundred meters.

For US tanks, (Wolverine as example) the first dashed horizontal line (unmarked) is 400 yards, the next (marked 800) is for 800 yards, naturally, 600 yards would be between them.

The tank sights on the Sherman 75MM and the Stuart work differently than the German sights.When the target and your estimation of the correct range match the correct horizontal RANGE line ( bring these together BY RAISING/LOWERING your cannon), you're ready to fire AND HIT!

The sights on the British 17 Pounder equipped version of the Sherman, the FIREFLY, you must adjust your sights by using the Q an E keys to "dial in" the range. You will see the horizontal line move when you use the ranging keys. Once you have set the line correctly then raise or lower the barrel so the line rests on the target and FIRE. These also have a Zoom sight function you can select with the scroll wheel. If firing at long range, Zoom in to check your shot then Zoom out and fire.

The German sights in DH are different than those in RO. We have made the operation more like the real vehicles. You must dial in the correct range using the Q and E keys then, raise or lower the barrel to bring the TIP of the large triangle so it touches the bottom of the enemy tank.

When you've fired your main gun and it is reloading, use your co-axial MG to pepper the enemy tank. These tracers will mark it clearly for your comrades to see and assist you with it. Remember, several of our maps are done on cloudy or foggy Winter days when visibility from a distance is not good.

When you are face-to-face with an enemy tank whose armor you can't defeat from the front, don't be shy about running for cover. Live to fight on his flank.

Learn to hit moving tanks. The Allied tanker MUST hit these moving targets when they present their vulnerable sides.

The Allied tank sights may be difficult at first but people that practice do learn to HIT!

Allied armor is generally thinner than the German. You must avoid being hit while still manuvering aggressively! Use the Terrain for cover!

ALL Allied tanks are penetrable at long range by ALL the Panzers you will encounter. Stay on the move and use the terrain to protect you until you can get closer. Head to Head fights at long range will kill YOU more often than a short range fight!

The 17 Pounder cannon can destroy Panzer MKIV and StuG's from the front or Panthers and Tigers from the side. Get to ranges of 400 meters or less if you can for deadliest results. If you can get close, you can even take on the Panthers from the front.

Allied tank sights take practice....and you must get the hits to survive!

Allied tankers! If you spot a Panther/Tiger class at long range, assume he can see you! Maneuver for cover, close the distance and attack his flanks.

The Sherman class in DH is a lot like the 76mm T-34 in RO. You must attack the heavier enemy tanks from the side to insure a kill!

On Wacht am Rhein and Vieux the Allies have artillery on call. Using this effectively can help offset the attack power of the heavy Panzers. Use It!

Allied tanks,working in teams, will overwhelm single MKIV/StuG types and can attack heavier types from more than one direction or distance. This is often the key to destroying a German Heavy Panzer.

Taking on any of the German "Cats" is suicide at long ranges. He can kill you with one shot whereas yours are likely to bounce off. Maneuver to win!!!

Much of the terrain of Darkest Hour maps is more close in than that of Red Orchestra battlefields. Tanks must work much more closely with their infantry to win. Move carefully, as to not outrun your infantry screen. If you do, enemy tank killer teams will finish you off with ease.

German Tank Sights have been made more realistic in DH: Adjust your range with Q and E keys then, MOVE the cannon barrel so the TIP of the indicator lays underneath the target.
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Wilsonam wrote: But, as someone said - perhaps just a touch too anal for a game

WUK: What! Thats impossible! Blasphemie!

#2 Shurek

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 03:36 PM

Here are some other useful tips:

The M10 Wolverine, Sherman M4A1 76mm, Sherman Firefly, and M10 Achilles all carry a limited quantity of high velocity rounds (HVAP or APDS). If you know that you are going to be in a head to head, close range situation with a big cat, switch over to these rounds. The APDS British high velocity round can take out a Tiger I frontally at about 1,200 meters, and the Panther at about 400-500 meters. The American HVAP round can take out a Tiger I at about 700-800 meters and the Panther at about 200 meters, or slightly more.

If you're confronting a King Tiger, aim for the mantlet on the right side of the main gun as you're facing the enemy. Even a Sherman 75mm or Cromwell has a chance of taking out his optics with a well placed hit. A blind cat is better than being dead.

On our large tank maps, it behooves the German team to keep a screen of smaller tanks around the King Tiger or Panther. While these big cats are nearly invincible from the front, they are largely vulnerable from the sides and rear. Even a lowly M5 Stuart if it gets around a Panther's screen can put a 37mm shell through its backside.

If your engine compartment gets hit, and your screen view starts to flash red at increasing intervals, that means either your hull or engine is on fire. Your tank will inevitably blow...it's just a matter of how long it takes. Do you feel lucky? Should you BAIL OUT, stay away from enemy fire, and call for a pickup by your Kubel/Jeep team...OR...try to stay in the fight for a bit longer.

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#3 Cpl.Christie

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 03:36 PM

Reverse Slope Tactic
First used at Waterloo, can be used very efficently on wacht am rhein, but requires patience.

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For more info http://en.wikipedia....e_slope_defence
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Moscow Centers Attaché to the Western Front

#4 Schneller

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 05:48 PM

THANK YOU Christie!

Allied tankers MUST use the BOUNTIFUL cover on our Tank Maps to get into killing positions on German heavies!

I sat in a Tiger on Vieux yesterday for a few minutes and killed about 8 enemy tanks/half-tracks.

I was clearly visible as I was skylined in the middle of an open field.

Guys, you can't drive into the face of a KT----Don't even let it see you, if you can avoid it!

Same for the Jagdpanther. These guys do one-shot kills on any Allied tank :cry:

Attack them with tricks (using the terrain or smoke rounds), or from the side!

If you can get super close, the 17 Pounder might let you fight it from the front BUT, learning how to get close is the key. The maps are big enough and have enough concealment to let you get there if you can be sneaky enough....

Schneller
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Wilsonam wrote: But, as someone said - perhaps just a touch too anal for a game

WUK: What! Thats impossible! Blasphemie!

#5 Kashash

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 04:13 PM

My few tips:

When you just starting moving your tank from respawn on to battlefield and see your teammate tank always follow him as close as possible, stick to him no farther than 30m. This tactic is much more effective than if you were just attacking alone beacuse for the good sitting panther will be much easier to destroy one tank after another than 2 tanks in the same time and the firepower is doubled with 2 tanks as well. Also with much difficulty of spotting tanks especially in a bad weathers, very often you get hit before you even spot the enemy tank, sometimes you even don't get a chance to respond at all when you get knocked out after 1 shot. Now moving carefuly with your teammate tank, he may get killed but at least you can easily spot the enemy tank by muzzle flash, so you got plenty time to aim and shoot cause he has to reload.

The another good tactic that is when you are very deep enemy territory and just approaching to the capzone, sometimes is better to STOP earlier behind the capzone and make an ambush. Most people will keep on moving to get to the capzone and eventually they get completely surrounded by the enemy. So sometimes is better to just hide somewhere in the most unexpected spot. You might have to wait 3 minutes before seeing anything but you'll be surprised how worth is when you'll get a King Tiger exposed like on a plate.

#6 stealth

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 01:20 AM

some nice hints

but i just come back from a game on Vieux where some axis players was saying it was better to one man a tank and was calling us retards because we thought differently.

i get the impression teamwork is less required for axis tanking...anyway

i believe a teamate in tank is really important, allies cant permit themsleves to sit around like fat bastars(german tanking technique :P )
with a team mate i usually ask him to follow some rules:

-keep moving when under fire, move randomly
-when tank commander asks you to stop,you stop and let him fire
-as soon as he's fired, if your spotted and in a field, get moving as fast as possible,randomly but showing your 1 or 11 o'clock
-as soon as you hear the distinctive clunck of last phase of reload stop to let tank commander fire
-repeat to total destruction of axis team :D

tank circling :
havnt really tried this out but going to try asap
-you need to have two players in tank, get a cruiser tank, a cromwell should do. drive around him and fire (slow tank turret on tiger gives you advantage). if the tank commander has having problems aiming (or if youself having problems aiming) slow down(ask him to slow down) when its safe. aswell watch out if tiger boy becomes smart and just waits until you come round in front of his gun again
if you can get two tanks in the operation(the more the merryier :D ) well i believe you get a deadly duo. also if axis teamate want to help they risk firing on teamate

tell me what you think
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#7 Death_Sheep

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 09:03 PM

Above all?

Communication.

When someone is doing something else, someone should always keep an eye out.

Mics are a godsend, but not necessary.

As long as you and your crew have some nice teamwork going on you'll do great. :D
Why dont you do your best?
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#8 Pongo

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 09:07 PM

The fallacy that multi crewed tanks are superior to single crewed tanks in any significant way has really got to be put to rest.

Usually, the person who jumps into your tank to take over the gun as you drive away is just a clown who cannot even use it properly, over half of them try to command a moving tank from the main armament sight. Or they just start firing into the distance. But aside from that.

Given two competent players, crewing the same tank, the tank might be 30-50%% more effective then either of them could individually manage. Maybe. In some few situations.
But those same two guys, each with their own tank, are 400% more effective if the similarly talk and work together.

So it is always wrong to double crew a tank and leave a tank in the garage. Don't spout that its good for the team, its not. You will help that tiger or panther and your team way more by taking a stug and supporting him if you know how. If you don't, then your just going to get his tank killed anyway.

The only guys I will keep in a tank with are the guys that are willing to get out when I ask.
Anyone else, I pull a bit away and wait for them to leave. No good player will fight you for a tank. If its a dead heat to a tank and I end up a guys gunner, I bail out and give it to him.

Now, if there are no tanks in the garage, then competent players could team up for the betterment of the team. But that is an extraordinarily rare occurrence in the game. And if all the tanks are gone, its better for the team to take an infantry spot.

The only vehicles that should be subject to the "waiting for other crew" should be the infantry carriers, because there are not enough of them for all the infantry. And it should be impossible to run over a player in the garage or spawn, or to even hurt a player. There is no good game reason to allow it, only dweebs who want to ruin the map benefit from the crazyness that goes on in garages.

#9 Schneller

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 03:00 AM

I agree with most of that. The only major exception would be increased visual/situational awareness. When I'm the commander, I'm able to keep a 360 degree sweep going and use the binocs a heck of a lot. Assuming the driver pays attention to my commands, this can let me get the first shot off on tanks on my flanks that likely would have killed the lone tanker.

On some maps, this awareness of one's flanks can be VERY valuable. Two sets of eyeballs IF THEY ARE CONSTANTLY SWEEPING are a real asset.


However, if the Commander just keeps his eyes forward or in the gunsight, then your position about single player being better is very strong.

Schneller
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Wilsonam wrote: But, as someone said - perhaps just a touch too anal for a game

WUK: What! Thats impossible! Blasphemie!

#10 Pongo

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 04:24 PM

It is not nothing to have a second pair of eyes and the ability to load and move at the same time. Or shoot and move. But its no where near as valuable as having two tanks.

Interestingly, the vehicle that benefits the most from a second crew, the Stug is probably the least likely to have it. The vehicle that I would think is so nimble and fast on reload as to need it the least, the stuart seems to be the most likely to have a second crew.(on the allied side I always hear the stuart crew members on voice working together.)

If the game forced you to pretend you were actually running the tank with one person, and it took 10 seconds to change positions, yes, the crewed tank would clean up all day.

#11 stealth

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 05:02 PM

I play with a friend on mumble and have excellent cooperation. true that the random guy that gets in your tank will make you weaker but if its a skilled teamfirend its better then playing in different tanks. i believe that having a two crewed tank is more necessary for shermans. keep moving and reloading. also when your moving you have someone with a good view always watching out. the fact we had a two man crew on vieux in our sherman made us beat a stug and p4 firing at the same time at us, stug on the left 300 meters away, p4 400 metersstraight ahead. we killed both without taking damage

self crewing a stug is painfull when the target is moving : angling the tank constantly and reloading makes you lose most effectiveness
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#12 Pongo

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 06:45 PM

Here is how a tank really uses crest defilade. The description above is more akin to how infantry would use it(IMHO as a former infantryman).
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The T72 in the picture, has a gun depression of 5 degrees. Like the Sherman Firefly. The Abrams at right, has a depression of 10 degrees, like the normal Sherman. The German tanks are mostly at 8 degrees. You can see that if the M1 advances to the T72s position, the dead ground will be dissipated quite a bit. If there is no higher ground in the enemies posession, this is available to the higher depression tank.
This is one of the greatest accomplishments of this game, the terrain is variable enough that these fire positions are available and critical to success with any tank in the game. The places where you can take an effective crest hull down in a Panther vs a Firefly are pronounced in the game. 3 degrees is 51 mils. 51 mils is 51 meters at 1000 meters. 3 degrees gives a huge 150 foot advantage in vertical view at 1000 meters, or 75 feet at the more normal 500 meter shot in DH
I cannot tell if the gun depression is exactly modeled in the game right now. The M10 certainly has great depression. I do not know if the Firefly has lost all 5 degrees that cramming the 17 pounder in the Sherman turret cost in reality. But the Panther using these techniques, is nearly invulnerable. Even if the upper hull is exposed, the slope of it is increased in direct relation to the negative depression. This will aid any tank, but it makes the Panther a nightmare.

#13 Schneller

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 03:27 AM

Currently the loadout of smoke on Allied tanks is Sherman 75 and Stuart; 3 rounds each.

This is not a big problem if you look at it this way:

In the basic "Hammer and Anvil" tactic the Anvil would fire on the enemy tanks while the Hammer manuevers to get closer and on their flanks. Assuming this starts with the Panzers 800-1200 meters away, nothing the Allies have could kill the German heavies anyway. So, you might as well have the Sherman 75's blind them with smoke while harder hitting tanks like Firefly and Sherman 76mm manuever to the sides ( and in the case of the KT---get a lot closer).

For the Hammer element to cover the distance from 1000m out to 400m (where they can really do damage to the German Heavies) they are going to need cover for a long time---as much as two minutes. Alternating smoke rounds and artillery missions could impair the forward aiming of the Panzers substantially.

For the Sherman to get off its three rounds of smoke it is going to have to "pop-up" from cover and get its smoke on target---the good thing is that it is shooting at an area NOT at an individual tank. In fact its smoke round should land well in front of the enemy tank. This way it will take the Panzer longer to drive through the cloud if it wants to continue its forward attack. If the Panzer turns to its side, is should expose its weaker flanks to fire from vehicles like the Wolverine or Achilles which could damage it from fairly long range.

So, its a simple thing, no more complicated than a simple football play. :mrgreen:

Sherman 75's and Wolverines form the ANVIL and carefully move from cover to cover as the Shermans fire smoke rounds to blind the Heavy Panzers. The object is more to survive than to advance but, if they can advance and still keep from getting killed they should. The closer range wil help the Achilles/Wolverine when they get shots at the sides of the Panzers.

The Firefly or Sherman 76's sneak around the flanks and try to close the distance.

The Officer fires an artillery strike whenever he sees the German tanks bunch up or stop moving. The smoke/debris cloud from that will add to the blinding effect as well as forcing the Panzers to move in directions they had not intended.

If the Panzers expose their sides, the Wolverines/Achilles engage from long range.

Finally, the Firefly and Sherman 76's are on the Panzer's flanks at distances of 400m or less. Now, they can kill with regularity Panzer MKIV and StuG from any angle and Panthers and Tigers from the sides.

It may be too complicated to pull off except on a clan server but, it is what allowed Patton's Tanks to advance day after day against tougher and more dangerous tanks.

I've described the ideal scenario. But, even a halfway organized version can still have a major effect.
[attachment=0:3m0ga3yu]Hammer_Anvil2.jpg[/attachment:3m0ga3yu]
Schneller
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Wilsonam wrote: But, as someone said - perhaps just a touch too anal for a game

WUK: What! Thats impossible! Blasphemie!

#14 Mikeedude

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:43 PM

Some interesting comments guys!
Mikeedude's tips for the day is 'Dont miss'
And 'Look for the smoke' :wink:

oh and teamtanking is generally more fun which is why we do it! We dont like to be 'billy-no-mates.

#15 Creepy

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 01:42 AM

Figure I'd just leave these German Panzer training range charts here...


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#16 Schneller

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 01:40 AM

I'm I getting the German instructions correct?

Did they fear shots from the T-34 at twice the distance of the Sherman?

Could this be the Sherman 75 versus the T-34/85?

Very Interesting graphic...now just a good explanation :lol:
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Wilsonam wrote: But, as someone said - perhaps just a touch too anal for a game

WUK: What! Thats impossible! Blasphemie!

#17 Creepy

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:34 PM

Auf Deutsche - In English

Seite - Side
Heck - Tail / Rear
Front - Front
Ich kann dich, doch du mich nicht abschießen! - paraphrase: I can't shoot you, but you can shoot me!
Das Betreten das kleeblattes ist <Insert tank type here> verboten! - paraphrase: It's forbidden for the <Tank> to enter the clover area!



Ich werde abgeschossen - I'm hit/shot
Anti-Götz - (Not sure) Anti-Armor? (Some small digging shows that it may be a term for armour penetration distances but someone speculates it's in reference to harassment/flanking ranges. It would be safer to say both, I think.)

It would be hard to compare the T34 and Sherman but the T34's gun had better penetration compared to the Sherman until they got tungsten carbide sabots.

#18 Schneller

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:03 AM

Here's a technique I'll be using.

Everytme I do an observation stop, I will check my range settings (on Panzers) and set it for the terrain I am moving into. Also fine tuning elevation of the main gun so that it matches the terrain to your front is not a bad idea.

I've won or lost several engagements lately because I could put the gun on the other guy a fraction of a second faster.

These sound like small things but, they will give YOU the fraction of a second.

Schneller
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Wilsonam wrote: But, as someone said - perhaps just a touch too anal for a game

WUK: What! Thats impossible! Blasphemie!

#19 Karbine

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 06:07 AM

I don't quite understand why regular shermans and t34s can even scratch tanks such as the Tiger I and II. Allied tanks are as strong as German and are as powerful too. This is bull.

#20 Pongo

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 06:19 PM

Of coarse the regular sherman is much less powerful both from an anti tank gun and an armour stand point then any Tiger.
If you are seeing different then that in the game then you are playing a different game. But I saw you whining about the same thing on line. So just to make it easy for you.
Its the user. Get smarter and the German tanks will work just fine for you.
Seriously. When tigers were used improperly, even by the most famous of their aces, they got killed by normal Shermans.
If you use them properly, you will have great success with them, unless someone is using that sherman far far better then you are using your tiger, or they are lucky. And that is as it was and should be in the game.




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