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Joe's Bridge to Highway 69


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#1 Creepy

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 03:51 AM

Hi,

I've recently taken an interest in mapping for DH and wanted to start this thread to discuss a few characteristics I wanted to incorporate into my map. I don't expect to be able to get these things in right away, wouldn't be surprise some things may have to be dropped, and fully expect this whole endeavor to be a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

The map, as the subject line suggests, is based on Operation Market Garden's opening hours, where the XXX Corps' Irish Guard led the advance into the Netherlands. The ground element began with an artillery barrage consisting of some 350 guns, followed by the Guards' advance across the border at about 8 kph. The artillery fire kept up with the advance, walking ahead of the column (Edit: About 100 yards, or 300 feet ahead.) Not far past the border, the Germans had let the barrage pass over them and laid in ambush. When the ambush was sprung, the Guards quickly lost 9 tanks and an armored bulldozer had to be called forward.

I'm still currently in a preproduction phase to this map, and want to explore the possibilities before I commit to building:

The ground to sides of the road was described as being soft. I've contemplated giving the ground the ability to bog vehicles down. The idea is to give the ground two layers in certain sections. The top layers would almost be like working with an opaque water effect that will impact only vehicles -possibly working with mass if there is a characteristic for this in the game. I noticed that I was able to squeeze 60kph out of a Tiger II going downhill on a map once. Anyway, the idea is the tanks would not only slow down but also sink a little into the earth with a possibility of coming to a dead stop.

XXX Corps had access to typhoons armed with rockets. When these aircraft were called down, they braved both friendly and enemy fire to deliver their payload on targets marked by purple smoke. One account described the typhoons as flying low and fast, one of them disintegrating under fire. I'll probably be modeling a typhoon with rockets for this if it sounds feasible. Either way, that's why I'm posting this thread here. ;p
I'm thinking of setting the typhoons up as coming from off the map when an artillery strike is called. They would fly in low and fire off a salvo. There would be a limited number available, and they can be shot down or severely damaged, reducing the availability. They won't be set up with anything too fancy as far as hit boxes in the interest of latency and whatnot. They'll likely also sport very low poly counts, since they'll be moving too fast for anyone to actually get a lot of detail -it will likely rely heavily on texturing.

There were 9 tanks destroyed on the road, which caused the initial jam. I'm thinking as part of the initial set up of the game, there will be a column of tanks that will move down the road and randomly get hit from phantom fire, causing them to list or halt completely. These tanks will remain on the map, burning and smoking. Possibly exploding on occasion. They should be difficult to push with normal tanks, thus requiring an armored bulldozer (another thing I plan on modeling if this sounds doable) to get them off the road so that XXX Corps can advance.

There were a lot of guns here hidden away. I'd like to have a 2 or 3 minute set up that will allow German players to place guns into hidden positions on the map. The reason behind this is to have the Allies guessing since after a time everyone is going to know where fixed positions are. As mentioned in another thread, I have a system sort of worked out for movable guns. I'll probably cross that bridge when I get there though. First model might be a Pak...

#2 RustIronCrowe

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 06:51 AM

That's a pretty ambitious design you have going on. I am not doubting that it could be done, but rather am simply stressing the "blood, sweat and tears" factor that will undoubtedly consume the best years of your mapping career :D
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#3 Creepy

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 07:32 AM

That's a pretty ambitious design you have going on. I am not doubting that it could be done, but rather am simply stressing the "blood, sweat and tears" factor that will undoubtedly consume the best years of your mapping career :D



Well some of the stuff like the mud is pretty easy, I think -It's just a little more work as opposed to being difficult. Other stuff... I think the scripting will kill me. We'll see though.

Have some soft ground:


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#4 Creepy

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 10:31 PM

Currently trying to work out where along the road the ambush took place. The accounts mention that they crossed the bridgehead and were "beyond the Dutch frontier" (I might be paraphrasing. Will double check later.) According to modern maps, it's about 2 miles, or about 3 kilometers to the border from the bridgehead. Around 15 minutes past the bridgehead at the reported 8 miles per hour the column was traveling at. The ambush was sprung roughly 2 minutes past the report which would have been about .26 miles in. If I were to assume the report came in at the time they crossed the modern border, it would put the point at where the ambush was sprung around the gas station is just before Woeste Polder (The lump of road south of the "Barrier.")

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From: http://www.irish-gua... ... bridge.htm

Ambush sprung ~3 mi from the Neerpelt (Joe's Bridge)
Infantry riding on 8 Shermans (2 Troops with 1 Firefly per Troop)
German 88s confirmed by account
German anti-tank ambush tactics appear to consistently destroy the second tank first


Loyd carriers in anti-tank platoon of 3rd Battalion, Irish Guards


Vehicles During Market Garden: ? denotes uncertain presence at time of battle
British:
  • M4A2 Sherman[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • M4A2 17pdr Firefly[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • ?M10 Achilles (Wolverine)[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • Bren Carrier[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • ?Sexton[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • ?Cromwell[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • ?Churchill AVRE[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • Daimler Mk II [/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • Typhoon [/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • Humber Scout Car[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]


German:
  • ?Puma[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • 5cm Pak[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • 7.5cm Pak[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • 7.5cm IG[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • 8.8cm FlaK[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • ?Tanks[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • ?Half Track Variants[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • Opel[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]
  • Kubel[/*:m:2t8pzj1d]


#5 Fallschirmjäger

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:02 AM

Sounds like a part in the movie the bridge to far,i think the first main action part in it?.
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#6 Creepy

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:52 AM

Sounds like a part in the movie the bridge to far,i think the first main action part in it?.


Yes, if you mean this part:


There are conflicts in that movie with the accounts I've read of course. hehe

The bulldozer they used is likely a D7 or D8 though I have no idea how they kept it from getting shot to hell. At least, it's reported that they called forward an armoured bulldozer and not a tank with a dozer blade or whatnot...

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#7 Creepy

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 04:35 AM

Map outline is WIP

I wasn't able to find enough details on the battle to make as good a representation as I'd like, so I've decided on adding on a few small twists in force organization:

The presence of German tanks is a bit unconfirmed. The few accounts I've read made no mention of them but a discussion by grognards suggest that the Germans may have had Stugs or JagdPanzers in the area at some point. This will be introduced as a QRF by SS-Pz.Jg.Abt.10 by way of radio. I may change this to an automatic trigger instead.

I couldn't confirm the presence of Daimlers within the Irish Guard but outlines I've seen suggest the use of Humbers. The command element may be using Daimler Dingos or possibly a Humber. As a result, a Daimler MkII will appear from the rear when the first cap point is taken, representing the free floating scout car elements within XXX Corps.

German fortifications are unknown but I may use some examples found with the bocage of Normandy.


Time frames:

Map set up:
2 minutes given to the Germans for set up

Game time:
60-90 minutes? I'll have to study the other maps for time and pacing though pacing will vary from game to game even if on the same map.


Map set up phase and round start:

Germans:
  • Players will begin in an entrenched HQ staging area.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Possible general instructions given on spawn at staging area.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • There, they can pick up PzFs and field guns1.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • The staging area will feature portals that will allow deployment into the field.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Once the player gets out into the field, another possible prompt. Important to note that artillery is incoming. (There will be an artillery barrage that will move up to around the border area slowly and WILL kill)[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Players can then set up guns and ambush points.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Vehicle presence for this map is currently unknown for Germans [/*:m:1kyjkpnd]

XXX Corps:
  • Players begin at Joe's Bridge.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • A message will prompt the players of a count down timer. Desertion warnings if moves beyond the bridgehead.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • There will be an artillery bombardment that can be seen advancing in the distance.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Once the timer goes out, the bridgehead is "unlocked" and a port space with a fade out/in will place them near the border. Artillery will continue forward until it reaches around the border and lifts away. [/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • AI tanks will move along Hwy69. Once they reach a tagged zone, they will be hit by phantom guns randomly. These vehicles may be fired on earlier by player guns to disable them? [/*:m:1kyjkpnd]

Game session proper:

Germans:
  • No air support at the start of Market Garden. Reportedly, 300 ME109s and FW190s in reinforcement to the western front and local air superiority was eventually established for duration of the operation. No impact on this map.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Some land mine usage (must look into possibilities of implementation. Maybe in set up stage with a switch)[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
[*]Once the first cap point by the Allied forces is made, a radio in the area will unlock

(Kampfgruppe Walther?)
1st/6th? Parachute Army
15th Army
9th SS Panzer Div
10th SS Panzer Div

(Contemplated adding a radio in a cut off area where the Germans have to fight to get to but could use in order to trigger vehicle spawns -maybe use for a different map -no mention of armor though, so possibly only half tracks, opels, and kubelwagons. It may allow an additional spawn point to open. Alternative may be to use radio room as an independent/secondary cap point which will open up the new point. Edit: See list note above.)


XXX Corps:
  • There are 7 Typhoons available to run sorties. Once they are out of rockets, they must return to rearm and refuel. They may also be destroyed or damaged when they make a rocket run, which will remove their availability regardless of whether they have remaining payload. (Maybe set up similar to AI player which can be given orders)[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Artillery may still be available(?) but their area coverage is limited. I'm uncertain if the artillery was limited to to inability to adjust fire with such close proximity to friendly units but it would make some sense.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • There will be an armoured bulldozer available to push the dead AI vehicles off the road so progress for armor can be made. Note: Bulldozer and Daimler MkII does not spawn until first cap point is established. [/*:m:1kyjkpnd]

2 HCR (Irish Guard)
RAF Communications Tender (Maybe keep it simple and cut this out in favor of an officer)
43rd (Wessex) ID elements (Possibly Dorset 4th and 5th from 130th Infantry Brigade)


Terrain Features:
I'm fairly uncertain of the topography and am tempted to see if I can locate a topographical map of the area somehow.
  • Dikes: Reportedly 20-30 feet high No dikes in the area.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Polders: Farmland with hay stacks and unused land sections filled with grass. Soft ground. (Checking the altitude maps, this area may be highland, so fewer polders)[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Roadside: Brush and trees on the sides of the road. Ditches as well.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Mud/Soft Ground: Treat as an opaque water (earth/grass) affecting vehicles only where the vehicle will sink and slow. Maybe scatter spots where vehicles will come to a dead stop?[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • GermanTrenches: With broken guns in the field and traces of artillery barrage passage. Need to test possible slow down on burning/smoking wreckage. Pock marked elements in Allied near fields.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Dust in the air (should help reduce some map rendering) -These elements will be immediately in the border area. Rearward trenches and foxholes will exist in a less concentrated fashion where the Germans fell back to during initial bombardment.[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]


Capture Points:

Primary objective will be to control Highway 69's full length and hold it. I envision 3 cap points with the last being at the far end. The cap points can be held in any combination, the actual control being reliant on player elements in holding capped positions.

Germans will have access to rearward trenches. Will consist of barracks sections that can be captured to cut off reinforcement spawns (Generally a bad game design element if done in a straightforward fashion IMHO because it can encourage camping. Will look into possible work around.) This is a secondary objective and is not an actual victory condition.


"Objects" to Model:
  • Gulasch Kanone / Feldkuche Hf.13 Stove: Research 90% ; Modeling 90% ; Texturing 0%[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Gulasch Kanone / Feldkuche Hf.13 Trailer Attachment: Research 80% ; Modeling 0%[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • German Specific Munitions Pile[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]


Vehicles to Model (Confirmed):
British:
  • Daimler Mk II : Research 90% ; Modeling 3% [/*:m:1kyjkpnd]
  • Typhoon (RAF 83 Group Markings?) : Research 5%[/*:m:1kyjkpnd]


#8 -7/AD- Gordon

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 12:32 AM

sounds great cant wait to try on our server!

#9 Creepy

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 09:53 AM

Gordon]sounds great cant wait to try on our server!


Heh. It'll be a while yet. I'm almost done with my outline and then when I put out the first version, it won't have the majority of the fancy mechanics in... This map design will be a lot of work.

#10 Razorneck

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 09:55 AM

Regardless, from what I read and see it looks like it could be a good fight. Looking forward to this one.
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Maps: Bois Jacques, Poteau Ambush (w/ Jörg Biermann), Noville, Son, Nuenen, Dog Green (w/ Exocet, Sichartshofen), Wanne (w/ BOH-rekrut)

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#11 Alvin Fuchs

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 05:36 AM

Sounds like a novel idea!

Hope to see this tricky sounding map on the server rotations in a few months.
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#12 Creepy

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:24 AM

Update:
Map adjust to match the account by L/Sgt. John (Jack) Brett who was reportedly present at the engagement. He mentions the encounter being not more than 3 miles from the start off at Joe's Bridge. At the very least, the current border is approximately 2 miles from Joe's Bridge, and based on the present day satellite images, the clearing just a little farther beyond the 3 miles would be the optimal ambush point, giving a large number of guns a decent field of fire while controlling the flow of armor passing down the road. In addition to this, Mk I 25 lb guns using 2 measures(?) of powder supposedly yield a range of 7,800 yds, 3 measures 11,825 yds, and extreme ranges at 13,400 yds, which would place the area within a reasonable range for artillery support while not placing the artillery right on the border.

Flight time might be between 38 and 53 seconds. I'll got with a shade below average on flight time and say impact of artillery will take 45 seconds once the fire mission is confirmed and fired. Because of the delay in effect, the typhoons will be good for immediate response, and if I can actually get a radio working in a Daimler SOD (or scout?), it can present some interesting combinations such as driving back units with rocket fire into inbound artillery.

With as much digging as I've done, I think I've finally resigned myself to doing the rest with guesswork and start moving forward with map elements while I continue the modeling.

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Closest I got to a period map of the area, this 1943 military map has the north end of the wood just before Borkel
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Neerpelt / Joe's Bridge:
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Lloyd Carrier getting hit during the ambush:
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Unknown point of ambush:
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Casualty of the battle: SSM William Parkes of No. 3 Squadron, 2nd (Armoured) Irish Guards
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Moving past after the ambush:
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#13 2fisted

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:37 PM

This sounds pretty cool creepy, can't wait!

#14 Jörg Biermann

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 04:48 AM

are you still working on this map?
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Maps: Poteau Ambush(Razorneck) Southern Oosterbeek(RIP)

...Get something wrong with the Germans in this game, and you will hear from Ernst Hoffman and Bierman...


#15 Alvin Fuchs

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 04:54 AM

Well now that I think about it he's developing the Daimler Scout Car because of this map, and he's updated his progress there recently so I doubt he's dropped Joe's Bridge.

I hope he hasn't dropped it...
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#16 Jörg Biermann

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 05:01 AM

same because I'm making a Son map so that so if he keeps doing this we will have more market garden maps
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Maps: Poteau Ambush(Razorneck) Southern Oosterbeek(RIP)

...Get something wrong with the Germans in this game, and you will hear from Ernst Hoffman and Bierman...


#17 Creepy

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:24 AM

Yes, I'm still planning on building this map, but I do have a lot of things I want to put into it and I'm just one person, so it'll be a while.
Some elements that's going into the map that you may or may not have seen floating around have been the Hf13 field kitchen (put on hold in favor of getting the Daimler MkII done), the Daimler AC MkII, and some sound effects.

I've been down a few weeks thanks to the dangers of using the internet for research (virii/viruses.) I've got my OS set up, but haven't gotten to putting all of the necessary programs in yet.

Also, I'll probably put out a different map before this one is completed.




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