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Operation Market Garden Allied Stats


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#1 {SHD}Metalbourne

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 03:14 PM

Does anyone know detailed strengths of Allied forces for this? I found the airborne forces strengths but not the Armored 30th Corp. I have the Axis forces down pretty good but just can't find details of the Armor for the Allies.
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#2 Cpl.Guillemette

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 03:31 PM

Those might help you?

http://www.pegasusar...m/order_xxx.htm
http://www.2ndbn5thm...Corps440917.pdf

if you looking for something on OMG, that peagasus archive is quite good
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#3 Lowes

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 01:51 PM

Wikipedia has its uses...

http://en.wikipedia.... ... _of_battle

^ The order of battle for the Operation. Axis and Allied units laid out in detail.
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#4 {SHD}Metalbourne

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 04:08 PM

Thank you guys but I don't see numbers of equipment. For the axis I've found what each unit had as far as tanks and halftracks. Just trying to locate the same thing for the Allies. Even an overall amounts could do. I know 30th Corp had tons of tanks (They lost 60 in 1 engagement and kept going). If I knew the overall strengths i could just assume 1 Firefly for every 3 to 4 Sherman 75's and a few Achillies mixed in and some Sherman 76's. I was suprised to see the 76's there even though I thought the British didn't use them. Maybe it was the Canadian forces that used them? I've seen several pics of them in OMG. I would also have to figure out a way to deploy the force of KT's in somewhat fair manner for the Axis.

For Campaign rules I thought about doing Heavy German tanks must use 3 slots for 1 tank (2 slots for all others) as Allies can single tank it. This would force the Axis pool down in numbers but have better quality in crews.
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#5 Lowes

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 06:36 PM

For equipment and strength, the Allies are easy. All of the units involved had been convalesced and given fresh equipment and replacements. They were all at their paper-strength, or in other words, full-strength in terms of arms and men.

This is late '44, 1 firefly to 3 75s was the standard in Normandy, the Brits had well over 50 percent of their Sherman fleet armed with 17lbers at this time. Brits had 76s due to lend-lease, and no, they were not exclusive to the Canadian Forces. Commonwealth nations were all equally armed.

The Kingtigers should start in the Axis Strategic reserve and take several 'turns' to reach the front; and should have to be committed at the behest of the Axis chief of staff.

For Campaign rules I thought about doing Heavy German tanks must use 3 slots for 1 tank (2 slots for all others) as Allies can single tank it. This would force the Axis pool down in numbers but have better quality in crews.


I disagree viciously, by encouraging the Allies to single-tank you are setting them up for failure, and considering the 113th Cavalry is the only Allied unit to ever win a campaign battle, I don't think the Allies can do with more of their characteristic failure :) 1 Panther crewed will cut its way through 8 Shermans that are single tanked. More realistically, you should just limit the overall numbers of Axis tanks; say a 3:1 ratio. This means the Allies will take horrendous losses in armored engagements, but will wear the enemy down through attrition: A reality that campaigning Allied units would be wise to suck up to and take in stride.

You must remember the Allies had advantadges in armored warfare that cannot be captured by the game; such as air superiority. Obviously, there is no way to capture this - and thus you should offset the numbers further in regards to tank material to capture the crushing air superiority that interdicted Axis armor.
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#6 {SHD}Metalbourne

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:01 AM

Well the allies don't have to single tank it, but they have the option to do so. The other reason is, is to use more slots so the Germans wouldn't have more infantry during that match too. Since both sides get the same amount of slots, in a match the ALlies will always outnumber the Axis side due to having Heavies with a crew of 3 and ALlies the option to double crew.

On the stats, I wish I could find their starting divisional strengths of tank types exactly, but looks like I will have to go the statistics approach. For the Axis I have each tank type and how many in each unit. Any ideas on what was the ratio of Cromwells to Shermans at this time? 60% Shermans to 40% Cromwells?
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#7 Lowes

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 03:44 AM

Cromwells are reconnaissance tanks; British battalions labeled "Calvary" or put in a position of reconnaissance would've had them issued. Considering a British Division only had 1 to 3 reconnaissance "regiments" (battalion sized forces), 60 to 40 is too severe a ratio. Hazarding a guess, 80 to 20 would be more appropriate.

For what its worth, a tank company would consist of (usually) 4 platoons of 5 tanks each; plus a Command tank and halftrack/light tank column as maintenance, ammunition and recovery. These would be emulated at the battalion, brigade and divisional level.

An average tank company would have 20 tanks plus 6 in reserve (this is the Allies). Assuming a tank battalion had 4 companies, the average amount of combat vehicles would number around 80. An Armored Division in the British and Commonwealth divisions was often criticized for having too much armor and not enough infantry. At a guess, 6-9 battalions of armor would be present; opposed to 3 in a US (light) Armored division and 6 in a US (heavy) armored division.

So, as a general rule of thumb, and assuming the low-end of the scale, a British division would've had 480 tanks of all types, plus 144 in immediate reserve.

This is opposed to the Panzer Division L.44 (Model 1944 organization), which, if I recall correctly, usually had around 150 tanks of all types; or about a regiment sized force. I could not even begin to give you the amount of reserves they would've had on paper, let alone the harsh reality of their shortages in 1944 without an extensive amount of research. It would have to be conducted on a unit-by-unit basis by exploring the combat diaries of the ones in the Market-Garden zone. It is worth noting though that "1st-rate" units such as a SS Division, or the 130.PzD "Lehr" would often have two armored regiments, as well as a fully mechanized, rather than just motorized, rifle regiment.

What's the difference between motorized and mechanized? Well, toughness of the vehicles. Mechanized would've possessed Hanomags (which, contrary to what Hollywood will tell you, were not common relative to the M3 Halftrack). Luckily DH lets a mapper put in Opel Blitzes w.o ammo in the back to allow you to portray a motorized force.
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#8 {SHD}Metalbourne

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:12 PM

Thank you for all of that, it was greatly needed since I thought they were more setup like their U.S. counter-parts. For the Axis I have it so broken down to what tanks each unit had and what area, who commanded them and when they arrived it makes it easy. Same for the Airborne units just not for the XXX corp.
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#9 LSchroll

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 03:58 PM

Did someone say something about a Market Garden campaign?! :o
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SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 'Hitlerjugend'

#10 FuriousBystander

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 04:33 PM

Just curious: Aren't there very few OMG maps for DH, as compared to Normandy and Battle of the Bulge? I can only think of Ginkel Health, Arnhem Bridge, Neunen, and Son. I'm just thinking of the amount work it would take to create maps for the campaign. Don't know if you could get by with 4.


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#11 {SHD}Metalbourne

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 10:16 PM

There may only be 4 maps named for OMG, but many maps could be convterted with ease for a OMG campaign.
Many maps have the look and feel of OMG terrain and some would be custom made. We have many mappers at F|H and we have British aerial Recon photos of every mile (or just about) of the campaign. Even if this does not happen for DH1 I want the resources for future campaigns. My goal is to make several campaigns in the backgorund so we have all the stats and so on available fast for next campaigns. Right now Turning Point Campaign is on hold due to many of the "RO2 game" factors. If DH does have a revival or enough people would be interested in joining a campaign I would love to do it for DH. The next campaign I will vault is Battle Of the Bulge and Kursk.
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#12 Razorneck

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 10:34 PM

The 29th also made a Market Garden map, The name escapes me but it was a rather big combined arms map.

Regarding Nuenen; if you plan to update it for the campaign and it's better than the beta 1 I put out feel free to make it available to the public afterwards if you wish. I know I left a bloody silver surfer in there :?
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#13 FuriousBystander

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:03 PM

What's a silver surfer? :?


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#14 Razorneck

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:14 PM

A scale actor (untextured model of a russian rifleman) you put in your map to see if everything is the right size. So before you release the map you always delete him.
... I didn't :o
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#15 Jörg Biermann

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 06:19 PM

Damn. If I knew there was going to be a Market Garden campaign I would of spent more time on Osterbeek.
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#16 Titus

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 09:01 AM

Can we please just settle on "OMG" as the name of the campaign?

Quick, whip up a banner.


Wheres Ludwig when you need him?

#17 Cpl.Guillemette

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 01:26 PM

But guys aren't we lacking some kind of OMG maps??
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#18 Razorneck

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 01:57 PM

How many maps are needed for a campaign like this?
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#19 Cpl.Guillemette

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 03:04 PM

Well OMG is quite linear
So let's see
Valkenswaard
Heindoven
Son + Best
St-Oendenroad
Veghel
Grave Bridge
2 bridge on Mas Waas Canal
Groesbeek heights
Nijemen bridge + Nijemen crossing
The island road map + Driel (polish paradrop)

South Oosterbeek+Arnhem road + Arnhem rail on rhine
Osterbeek+Arnhem
Ginkel heat+Renkum heat + Wolfheize(road from LZ to Arnhem sector)

witht his we could have something looking like a camping I say
With few options along the way... Shitload of bridgemap to be down wich would need to be blowable with sepcific timer :twisted: all this with the critical time constraint!

For real campaing it would need to look like this:
[tmb:18dri866]http://i.imgur.com/UMGQC.jpg[/tmb:18dri866]
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#20 {SHD}Metalbourne

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 11:50 PM

Great map and info on this. Don't forget, we could use several of the same maps more then once on a campaign map and mimic it to look similiar to the terrain in real life. I've done this for all campaigns to fill in the holes so you don't have to make a million maps. I think for this the campaign could run 1 or 2 ways.

1st Way, players sign up as Allied or Axis and a eleceted/selected commander for each side decides where all their units move and play as all allied or Axis units instead of sticking to 1 unit like in the past. This would be good due to the low amount of players available in DH. If units do join they could be assigned to a unit themselves.

2nd Way, players signup like above but only 1 or 2 units available for the whole campaign. This I think wouldn't give the impression of a big campaign imho.
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